KY MOFFET wrote to ALL <=-KM> ....with new versions written in Rust, and hilarity ensues.
KM> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3JqErfYGWk
Looks like I won't be "upgrading" for a version or two!
KM> ....with new versions written in Rust, and hilarity ensues.
KM> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3JqErfYGWk
Looks like I won't be "upgrading" for a version or two!
Yeah, I wouldn't either.
When basic functions like dd don't work.... that's a problem!
Hi Ky!
> KM> ....with new versions written in Rust, and hilarity ensues.
> KM> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3JqErfYGWk
> Looks like I won't be "upgrading" for a version or two!
KM> Yeah, I wouldn't either.
KM> When basic functions like dd don't work.... that's a problem!
Definitely! Not sure if dd is the base for all or most forms of file
copying but is a well-used utility.
Almost sounds like the version was put out to keep with the April and
October schedule. Nice in theory, obviously this one should have been delayed (if not scrapped).
> KM> ....with new versions written in Rust, and hilarity ensues.
> KM> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3JqErfYGWk
> Looks like I won't be "upgrading" for a version or two!
KM> Yeah, I wouldn't either.
KM> When basic functions like dd don't work.... that's a problem! Definitely! Not sure if dd is the base for all or most forms of file copying but is a well-used utility.
Almost sounds like the version was put out to keep with the April and October schedule. Nice in theory, obviously this one should have been delayed (if not scrapped).
Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't to keep schedule, it was whiney
brats going "You can't make me!" They've set their hearts on
swapping out C/C++ for Rust, and when numerous actual programmers
pointed out the problems with Rust, the whiney brats went "DO IT
NOW!" and the question of ready or not went out the window.
The theory is that Rust is "memory safe" by default, but turns
out you still need to have programmers who actually know what
they're doing, and Rust, being the cool kid on the block, has
attracted a lot of rather novice hands at the task, and it wasn't
just a matter of swapping out functions.
Hi Ky!
KM> Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't to keep schedule, it was whiney
KM> brats going "You can't make me!" They've set their hearts on
KM> swapping out C/C++ for Rust, and when numerous actual programmers
KM> pointed out the problems with Rust, the whiney brats went "DO IT
KM> NOW!" and the question of ready or not went out the window.
Not knowing who the 'whiney brats' are I'd guess they're powerful
enough to be able to chop heads but as with a lot of leaders don't know diddly-squat about how the stuff they're overseeing actually works. IMO
good to try something new but then also needs to be tested and found to
work.
KM> The theory is that Rust is "memory safe" by default, but turns
KM> out you still need to have programmers who actually know what
KM> they're doing, and Rust, being the cool kid on the block, has
KM> attracted a lot of rather novice hands at the task, and it wasn't
KM> just a matter of swapping out functions.
Never is. There are always basic steps one must know.
Might look like the right thing to do employment-wise to jump on the
RUST train as is the mode of software travel into the future, but it
still has to work: a train with a powerful engine sitting on shiny
aluminum foil wheels isn't going anywhere.
.. I plan to borrow enough money to get completely out of debt.
KM> Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't to keep schedule, it was whiney
KM> brats going "You can't make me!" They've set their hearts on
KM> swapping out C/C++ for Rust, and when numerous actual programmers
KM> pointed out the problems with Rust, the whiney brats went "DO IT
KM> NOW!" and the question of ready or not went out the window.
Not knowing who the 'whiney brats' are I'd guess they're powerful
enough to be able to chop heads but as with a lot of leaders don't know diddly-squat about how the stuff they're overseeing actually works. IMO
Oh, it's not ignorance.... I'm starting to think it's malice
aforethought.
good to try something new but then also needs to be tested and found to work.
It gets worse.
https://lunduke.substack.com/p/debian-adding-hard-dependency-on
As I comment under the vid:
===
Watch what Canonical does next, and see if your thoughts go where
mine did:
My cynical little voice wonders if the real "unintended
consequence" is to (for all practical purposes) kill off all the
projects downstream from both Ubuntu .... Ubuntu being the only
distro that has both jumped on this bandwagon *and* has the
resources to work past the problems Rust will cause.... and is
for all practical purposes Commercial Debian. ===
KM> The theory is that Rust is "memory safe" by default, but turns
KM> out you still need to have programmers who actually know what
KM> they're doing, and Rust, being the cool kid on the block, has
KM> attracted a lot of rather novice hands at the task, and it wasn't
KM> just a matter of swapping out functions.
Never is. There are always basic steps one must know.
Yeah, and with foundational utilities, all the thousands of
time-tested interactions that suddenly are bent sideways and ALL
need to be tested again, to make sure one or the other hasn't
tickled some show-stopper bug.
Might look like the right thing to do employment-wise to jump on the
RUST train as is the mode of software travel into the future, but it
still has to work: a train with a powerful engine sitting on shiny
aluminum foil wheels isn't going anywhere.
That's pretty much where it's at. People tend to either love or
hate Rust, but those who love it tend to be evangelical about it,
rather than pointing out where maybe it works better.
Hi Ky!
> KM> Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't to keep schedule, it was whiney
> KM> brats going "You can't make me!" They've set their hearts on
> KM> swapping out C/C++ for Rust, and when numerous actual programmers
> KM> pointed out the problems with Rust, the whiney brats went "DO IT
> KM> NOW!" and the question of ready or not went out the window.
> Not knowing who the 'whiney brats' are I'd guess they're powerful
> enough to be able to chop heads but as with a lot of leaders don't know
> diddly-squat about how the stuff they're overseeing actually works. IMO
KM> Oh, it's not ignorance.... I'm starting to think it's malice
KM> aforethought.
It almost would seem so: someone (could be a group -- probably is)
forcing through the usage of Rust. Rust itself might not be the problem
but rather the conversion to Rust. (Gee,this almost sounds like X11 and Wayland!)
How the incomplete product got released seems to be the big
question, but we have seen this sort of instance all over, not just
software. Middle management tells upper management "it'll work and make
us money!". Upper management looks at the one prototype -- "looks
good!".
> good to try something new but then also needs to be tested and found to
> work.
KM> It gets worse.
KM> https://lunduke.substack.com/p/debian-adding-hard-dependency-on
KM> As I comment under the vid:
KM> ===
KM> Watch what Canonical does next, and see if your thoughts go where
KM> mine did:
KM> My cynical little voice wonders if the real "unintended
KM> consequence" is to (for all practical purposes) kill off all the
KM> projects downstream from both Ubuntu .... Ubuntu being the only
KM> distro that has both jumped on this bandwagon *and* has the
KM> resources to work past the problems Rust will cause.... and is
KM> for all practical purposes Commercial Debian. ===
I could see both possibilities. I'm leaning more towards the 'resources
to fix' option as it seems there are a lot of Ubuntu users out there.
Would not be good to annoy a ton of users, but if they could somehow
restrict the annoyance. The 'restict' means something like run
everything under the old/it works way and slowly move (and so test) a utility. Let's say test Pithos (plays Pandora, the music stream). If
Pithos doesn't work it's going to be quiet here but I can easily get
around the error (access via a browser). The Rust people would know
(how, I don't know -- quite sure there are ways to monitor without
grabbing too much personal data) it didn't work.
Whis is sort of the basis of my Pithos example: start small and
restricted, and probably would be a good idea to start at the beginning,
or at least what is thought to be the beginning -- will find out! If
this test is made to work, great, and go on to the next. If not, well,
only one thing went down and reverse it to get it working and try to
figure out what went wrong.
Going to give a tangent. One of the TVs here is a Vizio (brand). Approximately October 30 we couldn't receive local stations: just
'spinning' (process loader spinner icon). All the other inputs worked
fine. Ended up watching local TV though the MythTV input. (This is
starting to sound like my Pithos example!) Movies and other Internet accesses worked fine.
October 31 still down, or at least first thing in the morning as didn't
watch live TV the evening because of Halloween. November 1st all working properly again.
So apparently they did an update, it didn't go quite as expected, maybe
tried a few other options, of which one worked or they rolled back to
what did.
I'm thinking the Rust project could do something similar for live
testing.
.. Do electricians listen to AC-DC or something more current?
> KM> Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't to keep schedule, it was whiney
> KM> brats going "You can't make me!" They've set their hearts on
> KM> swapping out C/C++ for Rust, and when numerous actual programmers
> KM> pointed out the problems with Rust, the whiney brats went "DO IT
> KM> NOW!" and the question of ready or not went out the window.
> Not knowing who the 'whiney brats' are I'd guess they're powerful
> enough to be able to chop heads but as with a lot of leaders don't know
> diddly-squat about how the stuff they're overseeing actually works. IMO
KM> Oh, it's not ignorance.... I'm starting to think it's malice
KM> aforethought.
It almost would seem so: someone (could be a group -- probably is)
forcing through the usage of Rust. Rust itself might not be the problem
but rather the conversion to Rust. (Gee,this almost sounds like X11 and Wayland!)
Exactly. But Wayland was a lot more developed than Rust, and had
been test-deployed by major distros for several years already,
and doesn't have the licensing issue (see below), and even so
there were still disruptions.
The woke loons (which is to say, useful idiots) had hung their
star on Rust, and here the non-woke happened to be the ones
saying, wait a minute, shouldn't you test this more first?? and
the woke loons went YOU CAN'T MAKE ME, and forced the jump. And
the more-cynical noted that the licenses are being changed along
with the switch from C/C++ to Rust -- from GPL to BSD.
Why is that significant? Because the GPL license forces you to
share your source code with the world, and the BSD license does
not. Which means that should some corporate entity, say,
Canonical, wish to hive off source and prevent downstream distros
from using it, they can now do so, and NONE of the downstream
distros have the paid full-time programmers who could cope with
recreating what they no longer get handed to them, so they either
switch their base distro to something like Slackware or Arch (and
accept being that niche), or they are SOL. What did I say about a commercial motive?
And if you're one of the non-woke who happen to disagree with
what's being done, YOU'RE ALL NAZIS and yes a bunch of the above
woke loons have trumpeted that in exactly those terms. :: Nazi
has become the generic shorthand for "I hate anyone who disagrees
with me, and hope they all die in a fire." Fine, no one cares
anymore, you overused "racist" until it's a joke. But the bigger
problem is that different woke loons take it literally as a cue
that "These are the people it's desirable to kill" and that got
us the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
[As a KDE user, I now wear a bag over my head.]
So it's no longer just a disagreement over how software should be
handled.
The more localized question becomes whether this nonsense burns
itself out before the whole FOSS world implodes, or is narrowed
down to those distros that are really viable if they don't have
Ubuntu upstream.
KM> projects downstream from both Ubuntu .... Ubuntu being the only
KM> distro that has both jumped on this bandwagon *and* has the
KM> resources to work past the problems Rust will cause.... and is
KM> for all practical purposes Commercial Debian. ===
I could see both possibilities. I'm leaning more towards the 'resources
to fix' option as it seems there are a lot of Ubuntu users out there.
Users are irrelevant, here. Only matters whether the parent
company has the paid programmers to deal with it. And whether it
can be sold to enterprise customers.
Which is going to be the real sticking point.
Would not be good to annoy a ton of users, but if they could somehow restrict the annoyance. The 'restict' means something like run
Here is what you're missing: ordinary users are not anyone's
customers, and no one in the business of selling or supporting
major software wants more home users. The real customers are
enterprise business, who pay millions for support contracts.
Ordinary users are a support cost, not a revenue stream.
THIS is why IBM bought Red Hat -- because Red Hat was the 800
pound gorilla in the realm of server support contracts. And
recognizing that home users are an expense, and not profitable,
Red Hat had already spun off Fedora to get rid of the cost of
supporting home users (and incidentally most of the cost of
beta-testing their product). Red Hat had shown that they
understand where the money is, and is not.
And Ubuntu has not been "free linux CDs for everyone" in a long
time... not since Ubuntu Server became a viable product that has
enough business users to be attractive for enterprise support
contracts.
everything under the old/it works way and slowly move (and so test) a utility. Let's say test Pithos (plays Pandora, the music stream). If Pithos doesn't work it's going to be quiet here but I can easily get
around the error (access via a browser). The Rust people would know
(how, I don't know -- quite sure there are ways to monitor without
grabbing too much personal data) it didn't work.
The big distros and desktops have had automatic error reporting
for a long time. And the commercial entities don't care if Joe
Blow's PC won't boot. They care if Amazon pays their monthly bill
for that big support contract.
Which is sort of the basis of my Pithos example: start small and
restricted, and probably would be a good idea to start at the beginning,
or at least what is thought to be the beginning -- will find out! If
this test is made to work, great, and go on to the next. If not, well,
only one thing went down and reverse it to get it working and try to
figure out what went wrong.
That's how it ought to be done, but when it's become a crusade,
all that goes out the window.
Going to give a tangent. One of the TVs here is a Vizio (brand). Approximately October 30 we couldn't receive local stations: just
'spinning' (process loader spinner icon). All the other inputs worked
fine. Ended up watching local TV though the MythTV input. (This is starting to sound like my Pithos example!) Movies and other Internet accesses worked fine.
October 31 still down, or at least first thing in the morning as didn't watch live TV the evening because of Halloween. November 1st all working properly again.
So apparently they did an update, it didn't go quite as expected, maybe tried a few other options, of which one worked or they rolled back to
what did.
This happens now and then.... about a year ago Apple had to roll
back a major system update, because it was nuking phones.
I'm thinking the Rust project could do something similar for live
testing.
They COULD, but they WON'T. Because this isn't about the quality
of the software.
.. Do electricians listen to AC-DC or something more current?
ZAP ZZAPP!!
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